3*
for money arise. I will certainly back up my hon. friend in what he said with regard to the Finance Committee and board Committee of a bank. The functions of a Finance Committee are in no way the same as those of a board committee of a bank or public company. Those who suggested such an idea must have known nothing about banks or public companies. I see no reason why discussions on rates of public money should not take place in public. If any person makes facetious remarks and they are reported they need not be afraid of having them reported; and if they are, they need not make them; but if they want to talk good solid business they need not be afraid to have good solid business reported. Therefore, although I would have preferred another one, I will accept this resolution as a pis-aller. Rather than move the other one, in which I am afraid the official members would not support me, I second this one.
some.
Hon. P. D. SASSOON-Your Excellency, although I admit discussions can be carried on perhaps more freely and in a somewhat less formal manner at the meetings of the Finance Committee and without the presence of reporters than would be the case should these gentlemen be admitted in future, still, sir, holding as I do the right of the community to know what takes place, as well as the right of the press to criticise the views of the members of the Finance Committee, I strongly recommend that in future the Press be represented. This step, I am sure, will give great satisfaction to the community.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-The present resolution, if carried in its present shape, will be nothing less than the abolition of the Finance Committee, and I do not think there has been any sufficient reason given for that. It has not been asserted that information has ever been withheld, or discussion interfered with, or that the official majority has ever been used to silence or in any way to coerce the unofficial minority. At the last discussion in the Finance Committee the Hon. W. Keswick was here, and he bore testimony to the usefulness of the Finance Committee. He was able to state that he had invariably obtained every information he could desire, that discussion and argument had been as free as possible, and the only thing he complained of was this-that after very full discussion in the Finance Committee the members were not disposed to discuss the matter in Council, or state their opinion. Not that they had any objection to their opinions being published, but it was more out of a wish not to take up the time of the Council, and the only recommendation or amendment he would propose or suggest was that it should be left to one or two members to move that the matter, instead of being referred to the Committee, should be taken in the Legislative Council. My hon. friend on my right (Hon. F. Ryrie) will bear similar testimony that in Finance Committee we have obtained all the information we asked for, and have freely and fully discussed the matters brought before us. Some mention has been made of coercion, or quasi-coercion, in connection with the fortifications, but as far as my memory serves me, everyone came round to the views expressed by Mr. Keswick and Mr. Jackson. There was certainly no coercion, and the committee was unanimous. I think Mr. Jackson, at one of the meetings of the Chamber of Commerce, bore similar testimony. Therefore I ask, what are the reasons on which we are asked to make a change in our mode of conducting business? I am sure if my hon. friend opposite (Hon. A. P. MacEwen) had waited some time he would have obtained a better insight into the working of the Finance Committee, and that he would not have brought forward his motion.
Now, with regard to publicity, I think every possible publicity is given. Nothing is referred to the Finance Committee except what goes through the Legislative Council. There is generally a minute of the Governor read first, stating the wants, and there is a motion that it be referred to the Finance Committee; and on that motion it is open to any hon. member to move that instead of its being so referred, it should be discussed publicly. This has not been done, and it has been referred to the Finance Committee, and there the matter is thoroughly discussed and thrashed out. Our meetings are certainly more free, and the matters are discussed more completely than if we met in public. There are hon. members who are good financiers, but have some difficulty in stating in public their opinions; and there are personal questions very often which are mentioned and discussed in Finance Committee which we would not be able to discuss in public. Again, the Government is able to lay before the Finance Committee far more information than it would be if the discussion were public.
Hon. F. RYRIE-I rise to order. On financial questions no information should be withheld of any kind.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-It has just been stated that a dispatch on financial matters may not be confidential, but there may be confidential reasons given for moving a vote. It cannot be said, therefore, that it is simply a question of figures, and that it is not confidential. But financial matters are not the only questions; very often they involve the conduct of a public officer. Now, in proof of the discussions that have taken place, I may refer to the long discussions on the Stamp Ordinance, the Loan Ordinance, and the Fortifications. The discussion on the Stamp Ordinance lasted several days, and in the case of the Loan we had also one or two discussions. Everything that could be urged was urged, and on a great many points the opinions of the unofficial members prevailed. With respect to the fortifications we had every detail given to the size of the guns, the situation of the batteries, and everything.
His EXCELLENCY-And that was confidential.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-Yes, confidential, and it was after the Committee had received every possible information that the decision was come to. Therefore I think that more information can be given in committee and matters can be more thoroughly discussed than if we had reporters here. Not that the Government has anything to hide, anything to be ashamed of in what it does, but there are many things that cannot be made public-departmental matters that it is not advisable or necessary to make public. On that ground the present system has many advantages over the one proposed.
But it is said in the resolution-"That in future all matters of public interest, and more particularly the voting of public funds, be discussed openly in Council, and not, as heretofore, at private meetings of the Finance Committee." It cannot be said that publicity does not exist at present, or that a vote can be snatched or passed through the Legislative Council without the public having every opportunity of expressing their opinion on the subject. The matter is referred to the Finance Committee to inquire and report upon. The Committee threshes out the subject, and calls for any evidence it may think necessary. Now, when this has been done in the Finance Committee, and when the report is laid before the Legislative Council, there is nothing whatever to prevent any member who has dissented from the report of the Finance Committee to ask that the report be amended, or to move that it be rejected, or, if he wishes to do so, to give in length the reasons which induced him to give the vote he did in the Finance Committee. I do not think it is right, therefore, to say that publicity does not exist. Matters which are discussed there may be discussed openly in Council now, whenever any hon. member deems it necessary or advisable, and I think the hon. Mr. Keswick and the Hon. Mr. Jackson gave their reasons when the important question of the fortifications was brought up. They said, although the matter had been fully considered in the Finance Committee, yet they thought they should, on this important question, give their reasons; and I believe they gave their reasons.
Therefore, as I have said, matters of public interest and the voting of public funds can be now discussed in public and before the Legislative Council whenever any member wishes it. This system has worked for many years, I believe, and has worked well, and, as I have said, no complaint has been brought against it. But it is said now that there is a desire on the part of the public that these matters should be made more public. Well, the present system ensures the public all the information it can require, and as lately as 1881 these rules were unanimously passed by this Council. I have not heard any sufficient reason given why we should change the system, and I therefore beg, sir, to move the following amendment-"That as it is now competent for any member of Council, when a motion to refer a matter to the Finance Committee is made, to move that it be discussed in Council, it is unnecessary to interfere with the
212
present
3*
for money arise. I will certainly back up my hon. friend in what he said with regard to the Finance Committee and board Committee of a bank. The functions of a Finance Committee are in no way the same BS those of a board committse of a bank or public company. Those who suggested such an idea must have known nothing about banks or public companies. I see no reason why discussions on rates of pub lie money should not take place in public. If any persona make facetions remarks and they are reported they need not be afraid of having them reported. and if they aro they need not make them; but if they want to talk good solid business they need not be afraid to have good solid business reported. Therefore, although I would have preferred another one, I will accept this resolution as a pis-aller. Rather than move the other one, in which I am afraid the official members would not support me. I second this one.
some.
Hon. P. D. SASSOON-Your Excellency, al- though I admit discussions can be carried on perhaps more freely and in a what less formal manner at the meetings of the Finance Committes and without the pre- sence of reporters than would be the case should these gentlemen be admitted in future, still, sir, holding as I do the right of the community to know what takes place, as well as the right of the press to eriticise the views of the members of the Finance Committee, I strongly recom- mend that in future the Press bo represented. This step. I am sure, will give great satisfaction to the community.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-The pre- sent resolution, if carried in its present shape, will be nothing less than the abolition of the Finance Committee, and I do not think there has been any sufficient reason given for that. It has not beon asserted that information has ever been withheld, or discussion interfered with, or that the official majority has ever been used to silence or in any way to coerce the unofficial minority. At the last discussion in the Finance Committee the Hon. W. Keswick was here, and he bore testimony to the usefulness of the Fin- ance Committee. He was able to state that he had invariably obtained every information be could desire, that discussion and argument had been as free as possible, and the only thing he complained of was this-that after very full discussion in the Finance Committee the members were not disposed to discuss the matter in Council, or state their opinion. Not that they had any objection to their opinious being published, bat it was more out of a wish not to take up the time of the Council, and the only recommendation or amendment he would propose or suggest was that it should be left to one or two members to move that the matter, in- stead of being referred to the Committee, should I think be taken in the Legislative Council. my bon. friend on my right (Hon. F. Ryrie) will bear similar testimony that in Finance Com mittee we have obtained all the information we asked for, and have freely and fully discussed the matters brought before us. Some mention has been made of coercion, or quasi-coercion, in connec tion with the fortifications, but as far as my memory serves me, everyone came round to the views ex- pressed by Mr. Keswick and Mr. Jackson,, There was certainly no coercion, and the committee was unanimous. I think Mr. Jackson, at one of the meetings of the Chamber of Commeree, bors similar testimony. Therefore I ask, what are tho reasons on which we are asked to make a change in our mode of conducting business? I am sure if my hou. friend opposite (Hou. A. P, MacEwen) had waited some time he would have obtained a better insight into the working of the Finance Committee, and that he would not have brought forward his motion. Now, with re- gard to publicity, I think every possible publi- city is given. Nothing is referred to the Finance Committee except what goes through the Legislative Council. There is generally a minute of the Governor read first, stating the wants, and there is a motion that it be referred to the Finance Committee; sad on that motion it is open to any hon, member to move that in- stead of its being so referred, it should be dis-: cussed publicly. This has not been done, and it has been referred to the Finance Committee, and there the matter is thoroughly discussed and thrashed out. Our meetings are certainly more free, and the matters are discussed more completely than if we met in public. There are Home members who are good financiers, but
have
have some difficulty in stating in public their opi nions; and there are personal questions very often which are mentioned and discussed in Finance Committee which we would not be able to discuss in public. Again, the Government is able to lay before the Finance Committes far more informa- tion than it would be if the discussion were public.
Hon, P. RYRIE-I rise to order. On financial questions no information should be withheld of any kind.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-It bas just been stated that a dispatch on financial matters may not be confidential, but there may be confidential reasons given for moving a vote. It cannot be said, therefore, that it is simply a question of figures, and that it is not confidential. But financial matters are not the only questions; very often they involve the con- duct of a public officer. Now, in proof of the dis- cussions that have taken place, I may refer to the long discussions on the Stamp Ordinance, the Loan Ordinance, and the Fortifications. The discussion on the Stamp Ordinance lasted several days, and in the case of the Loan we had also one or two discussions. Everything that conld he urged was urged, and on a great many points the opinions of the unofficial members prevailed. With respect to the fortifications we had every detail given to the size of the guns, the situation of the batterios, and everything.
His EXCELLENCY-And that was confidential. The ACTING ÅTTORNEY GENERAL-YOes, non- fidential, and it was after the Committee bad re- losived avery possible information that the deel- sion was come to. Therefore I think that more information can be given in committee and mat. ters can be more thoroughly discussed than if we had reporters bere. Not that the Govern- ment has anything to hide, anything to be ashamed of in what it does, but there are many things that cannot be made public-departmoutal matters that it is not advisable or necessary to make public. On that ground the present sys- tem has many advantages over the one proposed. But it is said in the resolution-" That in future all matters of public interest, and more parti. cularly the voting of public funds, be discussert openly in Council, and not, as heretofore, at pri- rate meetings of the Finance Committee." It cannot be said that publicity does not exist at present, or that a vote can be snatched or passed through the Legislative Council without the public having every opportunity of expressing their opinion on the subject. The matter is re- ferred to the Finance Committee to inquire and report upon. The Committee threshes out the subject, and calls for any evidence it may think 1900ssary. Now, when this has been done in the Finance Committee, and when the report is laid before the Legislative Council, there is nothing whatever to prevent any member who has dissant- ed from the report of the Finance Committee to ask that the report be amended, or to move that it be rejected, or, if he wishes to do so, to give in length the reasons which induced him to give the vote ha did in the Finance Committee. I do not think it is right, therefore, to say that publicity does not exist. Matters which are discussed there may be discussed openly in Coun- sil now, whenever any hon. member deems it i necessary or advisable, and I think the hon. Mr. Keswick and the Hou. Mr. Jackson gave their reasons when the important question of the forti- fications was brought up. They said, although the matter had been fully considered in the Finance Committee, yet they thought they should. ou this important question, give their reasons; and I believe they gave their reasons. There- fore, as I have said, matters of public inter- est and the voting of public funds can be now discussed in public and before the Legisla tive Council whenever any member wishes it. This system has worked for many years, I believe, and has worked well, and, as I have said, no
But complaint has been brought against it.
it is said now that there is a desire on the part of the public that these matters should be ma le more public. Well, the present system ensures the public all the information it can re- quire, and as lately at 1881 these rules were un- animously passed by this Council. I have not heard any sufficient reason given why we should change the system, and I therefore beg, sir, to move the following amendment-"That as it is now competent for any member of Council, when a motion to refer a matter to the Finance Com- mittee is made, to move that it be discussed in Connoil, it is unnecessary to interfere with the
212
present
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.